Posted by Ray Iddinngs on July 12, 1999 at 16:04:26:
This dialogue lifted from arcade@home message board without permission (sorry Tim)
Comments On HotRod Joystick
Arcade@Home Forum: Building Controllers or Cabinets: Comments On HotRod Joystick
By Todd Moon (re221072.robins.af.mil - 137.244.221.72) on Thursday, July 8, 1999 - 09:30 am:
I've seen a lot of hype from this site about the hot rod joystick lately and after checking it out, I'm not sure why.
The only thing I can think of is that the people pushing this overpriced thing are getting a cut from the profits.
I know that most of you have made your own controls or cabinets and know that all of our setups are unique.
HotRod however boasts that this stick is something great and that it's insufficient # of controls is just perfect and
that's it's faulty keyboard encoder is such a great thing. They want everyone to think that melamine, which is the
worst building product made (it chips and flakes like crazy) is an awesome material for making a control panel.
They don't even have a trackball, a spinner, or a 4 way joystick capability.
I recently finished a reverse engineering project of 2 hagstrom encoders with a friend. We found 7 serious flaws in
their product that make it EXTREMELY slow, prone to lockups and infringe upon 2 existing patents not held by or
licensed to hagstrom. I'm trying to locate the patent holders right now. It's products like this that disgust me.
Some of the mistakes in this product mean that it only has a projected lifetime of around 1500 hours.
The encoder that my friend and I have built is approximately 52 times faster than the hagstrom models, has more
features and only took 3 days to build and program. It has 60 inputs and cost us $27 to build. Using some test
equipment, we've been able to cycle through all combinations of the 60 inputs and various sample rates, including
at much as 12,500 keypresses per second! The hagstrom ke24 died at around 200 keypresses per second! (It
required a power down/restart to reset most of the time) Our test not only simulated keypresses but also verified
the output from the controller. The hagstrom model's output went nuts at 200 keys per second and started sending
all sorts of trash to the computer before finally locking up. There is also a keypress and configuration combination
that locks up the hagstrom encoder.
These products might work fine for light use and the general unknowing public. I think that for the type of people
who enjoy building these devices, inferior products will undoubtedly invoke the need to eventually upgrade. Why
start with something inferior? We should push these manufacturers to produce good quality products.
I'm curious what other people here think about the hotrod joystick and/or the hagstrom encoders. Please post your
opinion.
By Richi E. (126.toledo-03-04rs.oh.dial-access.att.net - 12.76.101.126) on Thursday, July 8, 1999 - 02:32 pm:
Wow! You obviously know your shit! And I appreciate the advice (of sorts). I wasn't going to get a Hot Rod, but I
thought the KE24 was the way to go until now. So what do I do? And can you help me wire my RGB to the
computer? If so, I know you are great.
By Anonymous (smtp6.thewwwstore.com - 38.228.178.6) on Thursday, July 8, 1999 - 03:51 pm:
I think that the hotrod is a cool product for those show don't wnat to biuld ther own, but $200.00 is ridiclous, I
bought the same parts form happs for 40 bucks, and they must be getting volume deals. I would buy one if it was
under 100 dollars
By Dmck (ts04-083.dublin.indigo.ie - 194.125.148.210) on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 04:52 am:
Why don't you sell your device? I'm sure there would be a lot of people interested in it., I know I would.
D
By Todd Moon (re221072.robins.af.mil - 137.244.221.72) on Friday, July 9, 1999 - 08:55 am:
Our encoder will be for sale after we get it certified and UL listed. I also have to do some legal work to sell it
through a different corp. than the one I use for consulting work. I don't need any lawsuits destroying my source of
living income! The whole process will probably take around 6 months. I did a similar project for a slot car drag strip
control system that's sold 950 some units.
By Ray Iddings (1cust233.tnt32.chi5.da.uu.net - 208.255.50.233) on Sunday, July 11, 1999 - 10:24 pm:
Think about this...I built my own arcade panel/machine (http://home.sprintmail.com/~voodoochile/Radical.htm)
and I really am sick and tired of all the crap people are throwing around...look I don't work for HotRod or
Halgstroms, I don't have a HodRod and yes I think the $200.00 price tag is a little rich for my blood but lets look at
what this product IS doing for emulation, I mean LEGALLY LICENCED ROMS for a peice of software (MAME) that
most game companies fear and loath. And not to mention a special edition of Arcade@Home. Thats a huge
accomplicement for a product and a Hobby that isn't that legit. (how many people have Waku Waku and REALLY
own the board).
I think that Hey if you can build a encoder thats better,cheaper and faster GREAT. If you can build a control panel
thats better than a HotRod GREAT, but You don't have to slam on two diffrent companies that are doing what you
hope to do, which is make some cash.
Look if the Halgstrom is such a peice of crap then why is it the choice for emulation? (mine works great) and as
for the HotRod if its a piece of crap then trust me people will know.
Arcade Solutions sells control panels that look like they were built in my garage with "off-the-self" products for a
helluva lot more than the HotRod and no one is slammin him. And I don't see him slammin his compition just to
sell his wares.
There's room for everyone and I just don't think that you have to bitch about the competion (and a product
(HotRod)you haven't even tried).
That's just my 2 cents Flame Away.
By Todd Moon (re221072.robins.af.mil - 137.244.221.72) on Monday, July 12, 1999 - 09:55 am:
My intent is not to make a profit off my encoder. I did something similar to this for a hobby that my brother is into.
We make $3 per unit and it took me 8 months to recoup my development costs. (components only) I didn't even
pay myself for labor. I plan on doing the same thing with an encoder because I know what it costs to make a
device and I know what people are selling them for. I think it's ridiculous that a company is charging an extra $70
per item. Especially when the item has defects. This isn't necessary. Granted it was probably illegal for me to
reverse engineer one of the products but I didn't see any declaration that restricted me from doing it. All they did
was set a couple of lock bits that were supposed to prevent me from looking at program code on the device. Of
course I know how to get around that.
I have my own business providing custom built data acquisition and production control systems. A recent project I
did was fixed priced at $800k but only took $30k to complete. This costing wasn't my choice but the customer
insisted on this fixed cost and I far underbid my competitors. This is typical of my contracts and I pulled in $930k
last year after everything was said and done. I don't need $70 a unit for a total of maybe 100 units. What good is
$7K when you have to put all that time into production, distribution, customer support, potential lawsuits,
patenting, etc. You have to understand this business to realize that I can only offer a product like this as a
courtesy to other hobbiests. This isn't a money making opportunity.
I became interested in this hobby because I enjoy the older video games that MAME supports. I believe in making
this available to anyone who has an interest and I think that these games really should be preserved. My intent at
making an encoder is to help other hobbiests sucessfully make a control panel or MAME cabinet that gives
perfect performance at a reasonable price.
If this community is offended by my trying to do what I think is "helping out" then I'll shut up and not offer my
products. I certainly won't lose any money over it.
By Ray Iddings (1cust1.tnt32.chi5.da.uu.net - 208.255.50.1) on Monday, July 12, 1999 - 04:06 pm:
Again I think thats fine that you want to help out my point is that you don't need to slam the compition to do it.
Ever product in the world has a mark up. If you can sell an encoder for 100 bucks so be it. If you can make a
superior, cheaper product woohoo.
Competion is good but head hunting isn't.